Professional Development Forum

I saw this article about likeability (especially for women in the workplace) in a newsfeed last month and didn't have the chance to sit down with it until just recently. I'm so glad I saved it to come back to it, because it resonated strongly. The article (and 20 minute podcast) covers bias, authentic leadership, "likeability traps" and how to combat them. It's a fascinating read/quick listen. 

This "likeability trap" was reminiscent of an experience that I had early in my career. I recall an annual review where the extent of feedback about my performance was, "Everyone likes you!" I realized then that I would never really move up in the organization. 


I'd really like others to read the article/listen to the podcast so I can hear their thoughts. Like a book club, but with a podcast. (Is that a thing?) If anyone is interested, we could use my Zoom!

@Quinn Drew @Maria Liccardo @Amanda Gose @Amanda Court @Beth Power @Barbara Mifsud @Alison Randall @Colette Martin-Wilde @Julie Aubry @Emily Tucker @Paige Lazar @LaShonda Delivuk @Nicole Daines @Jane DeMoss @Mhari Goldstein @Elisa Meggs @Stacy Graham​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

------------------------------
-Brianne
------------------------------

@Brianne Haxton  This has been my dilemma for my entire career!  As long as I can remember I've been criticized for either being too direct  or too long-winded and wasteful.  I'm either too abrupt and perfunctory or over contextualize.  Professionally, I've scored pretty low on the "likeability scale" and  I've accepted and internalized this as an irreconcilable character flaw rather than a systemic, discriminatory attitude.  I'm grateful this is being examined in the open and tying it to authenticity, which is an idea that challenges the status quo. Authenticity came up recently in a DEI conversation and this article hits the nail on the head:

"We're also living in a moment where there is this premium placed on authenticity and authentic leadership. But if you are telling women that however they show up is not the right way to show up as a likeable leader, then they cannot possibly show up authentically as themselves. And then you add all these other markers of identity - race and ethnicity, sexual orientation, disability - and it becomes even more complicated."

Complicated indeed!  I have never felt able to bring my "authentic self" to work because it has always been clearly communicated that you don't talk about your kids, your family, your interests, or what's going on in the other 16 hours of your day, regardless of how it contributes to your ability to produce. 

For contemporary working women, changing this "likeability" dynamic is so important.  "We can do a few things. We can push for more subjective, concrete feedback. ​"

That will be the first step to reframe how work is evaluated - "subjectively" includes the whole person and the experience that informs the work they do and "objectively" which is about the quality of the work.  That doesn't mean that "likeability" isn't a factor, but I think the time has come to better define what it means and sort out ways and specific actions that promote more positive outcomes and a balanced view.  I'd be happy to join you for a conversation.  Thanks @Brianne Haxton so much for bringing this up.

​

------------------------------
CMW
Colette Martin-Wilde
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2021 23:25
From: Brianne Haxton
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

I saw this article about likeability (especially for women in the workplace) in a newsfeed last month and didn't have the chance to sit down with it until just recently. I'm so glad I saved it to come back to it, because it resonated strongly. The article (and 20 minute podcast) covers bias, authentic leadership, "likeability traps" and how to combat them. It's a fascinating read/quick listen. 

This "likeability trap" was reminiscent of an experience that I had early in my career. I recall an annual review where the extent of feedback about my performance was, "Everyone likes you!" I realized then that I would never really move up in the organization. 

The biggest [likeability trap] that women run into is what I call the Goldilocks conundrum - you know, too warm, too cold. A woman, it seems, is never just right. As a woman, you will either get feedback that you are too warm: "Everyone likes you - just people don't think you have what it takes." And very often no one can tell you exactly what that is, but what they're most often talking about is a perception of strength. And then a woman who is what we would perceive as strong, who asserts herself, who lobbies for things, will often be told that while she has what it takes to lead, she needs to tone it down lest she ruffle too many feathers. And what I think is particularly important to understand is that there are so many women like myself who have been given both sets of feedback, who have been told in some contexts that we are too warm and have been told in other contexts that we are too strong, which just really underlines how context[ual], specific and subjective all of this feedback is.

I'd really like others to read the article/listen to the podcast so I can hear their thoughts. Like a book club, but with a podcast. (Is that a thing?) If anyone is interested, we could use my Zoom!

@Quinn Drew @Maria Liccardo @Amanda Gose @Amanda Court @Beth Power @Barbara Mifsud @Alison Randall @Colette Martin-Wilde @Julie Aubry @Emily Tucker @Paige Lazar @LaShonda Delivuk @Nicole Daines @Jane DeMoss @Mhari Goldstein @Elisa Meggs @Stacy Graham​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

------------------------------
-Brianne
------------------------------

@Brianne Haxton

I would love to join this conversation. I have had this struggle time and time again: "Amanda, you're so outgoing, positive, and interested in the details needed to elevate this particular project but wait - your interest in those details is too much; you're too nervous, indecisive, controlling, overthinking."

Getting that kind of feedback is deflating, confusing, and feels like a trap! When it happens, I've felt the need to hide some of myself to be more likable or successful, or I've spiraled into a funk because if the person provided the feedback took some time to understand me, they would "see the real me." It's such an awful feeling. I love the idea of clarifying what people mean when they provide this kind of feedback; or gut-checking with people that know you.

In general, I think that we should all be more empathetic to others. Let's think before we quickly like/dislike someone; let's put ourselves in their shoes and dig a little deeper to understand the situation - it's then that we can break down biases and create more authenticity! ​​​

------------------------------
Amanda Gose
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2021 23:25
From: Brianne Haxton
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

I saw this article about likeability (especially for women in the workplace) in a newsfeed last month and didn't have the chance to sit down with it until just recently. I'm so glad I saved it to come back to it, because it resonated strongly. The article (and 20 minute podcast) covers bias, authentic leadership, "likeability traps" and how to combat them. It's a fascinating read/quick listen. 

This "likeability trap" was reminiscent of an experience that I had early in my career. I recall an annual review where the extent of feedback about my performance was, "Everyone likes you!" I realized then that I would never really move up in the organization. 

The biggest [likeability trap] that women run into is what I call the Goldilocks conundrum - you know, too warm, too cold. A woman, it seems, is never just right. As a woman, you will either get feedback that you are too warm: "Everyone likes you - just people don't think you have what it takes." And very often no one can tell you exactly what that is, but what they're most often talking about is a perception of strength. And then a woman who is what we would perceive as strong, who asserts herself, who lobbies for things, will often be told that while she has what it takes to lead, she needs to tone it down lest she ruffle too many feathers. And what I think is particularly important to understand is that there are so many women like myself who have been given both sets of feedback, who have been told in some contexts that we are too warm and have been told in other contexts that we are too strong, which just really underlines how context[ual], specific and subjective all of this feedback is.

I'd really like others to read the article/listen to the podcast so I can hear their thoughts. Like a book club, but with a podcast. (Is that a thing?) If anyone is interested, we could use my Zoom!

@Quinn Drew @Maria Liccardo @Amanda Gose @Amanda Court @Beth Power @Barbara Mifsud @Alison Randall @Colette Martin-Wilde @Julie Aubry @Emily Tucker @Paige Lazar @LaShonda Delivuk @Nicole Daines @Jane DeMoss @Mhari Goldstein @Elisa Meggs @Stacy Graham​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

------------------------------
-Brianne
------------------------------

@Brianne Haxton - thank you for sharing this. In short, I am 100% down for a podcast conversation. I bet @Nick Kapling would be, too. And @Amanda Court, who recently accepted a new job and challenged herself to ask for what she needed in the job negotiations (I know, not exactly what this is about, but related for sure). Also @Lee Ann Searight and I have had related conversations, too.

I'm reminded of an episode of Superstore wherein one of the female characters talked about how she was aware that no one liked her, but didn't care (spoiler: she cared more than she admitted)/didn't need to be liked. But the turning point of the episode wasn't this beautiful "ah-ha" moment where she started getting along with everyone and everything was perfect. Instead, she was able to use that attitude to save one of the staff members from being fired. (Vague, I know, but i don't want to get TOO far into it because it's a good show and y'all should watch). 

Point being - I'd love to talk more about this: how we see it in our lives, how we work through it, and how we can best support others who are experiencing similar thoughts. 

@Colette Martin-Wilde and @Amanda Gose - thank you for sharing your stories and perspectives.
​​​​​​

------------------------------
Stay awesome,
Quinn
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2021 23:25
From: Brianne Haxton
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

I saw this article about likeability (especially for women in the workplace) in a newsfeed last month and didn't have the chance to sit down with it until just recently. I'm so glad I saved it to come back to it, because it resonated strongly. The article (and 20 minute podcast) covers bias, authentic leadership, "likeability traps" and how to combat them. It's a fascinating read/quick listen. 

This "likeability trap" was reminiscent of an experience that I had early in my career. I recall an annual review where the extent of feedback about my performance was, "Everyone likes you!" I realized then that I would never really move up in the organization. 

The biggest [likeability trap] that women run into is what I call the Goldilocks conundrum - you know, too warm, too cold. A woman, it seems, is never just right. As a woman, you will either get feedback that you are too warm: "Everyone likes you - just people don't think you have what it takes." And very often no one can tell you exactly what that is, but what they're most often talking about is a perception of strength. And then a woman who is what we would perceive as strong, who asserts herself, who lobbies for things, will often be told that while she has what it takes to lead, she needs to tone it down lest she ruffle too many feathers. And what I think is particularly important to understand is that there are so many women like myself who have been given both sets of feedback, who have been told in some contexts that we are too warm and have been told in other contexts that we are too strong, which just really underlines how context[ual], specific and subjective all of this feedback is.

I'd really like others to read the article/listen to the podcast so I can hear their thoughts. Like a book club, but with a podcast. (Is that a thing?) If anyone is interested, we could use my Zoom!

@Quinn Drew @Maria Liccardo @Amanda Gose @Amanda Court @Beth Power @Barbara Mifsud @Alison Randall @Colette Martin-Wilde @Julie Aubry @Emily Tucker @Paige Lazar @LaShonda Delivuk @Nicole Daines @Jane DeMoss @Mhari Goldstein @Elisa Meggs @Stacy Graham​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

------------------------------
-Brianne
------------------------------

Sorry to chime in if this is mostly a conversation among women. But I am glad you shared it and that I read it. I think it's very important that these discussions are had, and at every level. I do feel a lot of those judgements are subjective, and complicated by gender equality issues. I hope we can get to a place where everyone can be authentic, open, and friendly. And I don't think "everyone likes you" is a bad thing at all.

------------------------------
Arnold Grahl
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2021 15:54
From: Quinn Drew
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

@Brianne Haxton - thank you for sharing this. In short, I am 100% down for a podcast conversation. I bet @Nick Kapling would be, too. And @Amanda Court, who recently accepted a new job and challenged herself to ask for what she needed in the job negotiations (I know, not exactly what this is about, but related for sure). Also @Lee Ann Searight and I have had related conversations, too.

I'm reminded of an episode of Superstore wherein one of the female characters talked about how she was aware that no one liked her, but didn't care (spoiler: she cared more than she admitted)/didn't need to be liked. But the turning point of the episode wasn't this beautiful "ah-ha" moment where she started getting along with everyone and everything was perfect. Instead, she was able to use that attitude to save one of the staff members from being fired. (Vague, I know, but i don't want to get TOO far into it because it's a good show and y'all should watch). 

Point being - I'd love to talk more about this: how we see it in our lives, how we work through it, and how we can best support others who are experiencing similar thoughts. 

@Colette Martin-Wilde and @Amanda Gose - thank you for sharing your stories and perspectives.
​​​​​​

------------------------------
Stay awesome,
Quinn

Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2021 23:25
From: Brianne Haxton
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

I saw this article about likeability (especially for women in the workplace) in a newsfeed last month and didn't have the chance to sit down with it until just recently. I'm so glad I saved it to come back to it, because it resonated strongly. The article (and 20 minute podcast) covers bias, authentic leadership, "likeability traps" and how to combat them. It's a fascinating read/quick listen. 

This "likeability trap" was reminiscent of an experience that I had early in my career. I recall an annual review where the extent of feedback about my performance was, "Everyone likes you!" I realized then that I would never really move up in the organization. 

The biggest [likeability trap] that women run into is what I call the Goldilocks conundrum - you know, too warm, too cold. A woman, it seems, is never just right. As a woman, you will either get feedback that you are too warm: "Everyone likes you - just people don't think you have what it takes." And very often no one can tell you exactly what that is, but what they're most often talking about is a perception of strength. And then a woman who is what we would perceive as strong, who asserts herself, who lobbies for things, will often be told that while she has what it takes to lead, she needs to tone it down lest she ruffle too many feathers. And what I think is particularly important to understand is that there are so many women like myself who have been given both sets of feedback, who have been told in some contexts that we are too warm and have been told in other contexts that we are too strong, which just really underlines how context[ual], specific and subjective all of this feedback is.

I'd really like others to read the article/listen to the podcast so I can hear their thoughts. Like a book club, but with a podcast. (Is that a thing?) If anyone is interested, we could use my Zoom!

@Quinn Drew @Maria Liccardo @Amanda Gose @Amanda Court @Beth Power @Barbara Mifsud @Alison Randall @Colette Martin-Wilde @Julie Aubry @Emily Tucker @Paige Lazar @LaShonda Delivuk @Nicole Daines @Jane DeMoss @Mhari Goldstein @Elisa Meggs @Stacy Graham​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

------------------------------
-Brianne
------------------------------

Hi, Arnie,

Don't apologize. Your voice is important. I agree, "everyone likes you" isn't inherently a bad thing until it becomes a yardstick for performance and manipulation. To be clear, when a manager tells you that no one wants to work with you because you're not likeable (true story for me) it becomes a weapon for keeping you in your place. It isn't just the workplace, either. It is everywhere. I had a relative tell me, "You used to be so nice (referring to my 6 year old self), what happened? (to my 43 year old self)."  It's just that the likeability factor is one that is a mainstay of our socialization that requires hard work to recognize, face and correct.  Get enough of the same message, you believe it.  Being liked over being accomplished is the challenge that men don't routinely face  because it's not a factor in evaluating men. Men being unlikeable is accepted, often lauded and sometimes admired. Look no farther than our immediate past US president for proof of that.

To broaden the conversation, I ask you, "Which pre-judgements and expectations for men bother you?"  Society isn't fair to you guys either. Crying is weakness, for example, dedication to work to the detriment of family.  I know there are more.  It's only when we recognize, honor and work to change these biases together that we can make progress. We don't always hear all of the variations to these arguments. It's not black and white.  An example, a little off topic, but you'll get what I mean. When my son was in 5th grade he had a teacher who threatened and punished boys by making them sit with the girls. I was horrified and complained bitterly to the principal about the message that sent to young men.  Many years later, my son told me, "Mom, in 5th grade it is so hard  for boys to get any where near girls that getting punished was a way to do it without risk."  Point of view is everything!  Wish he had told me that when he was 11. It was a real eye-opener for me to take off my blinders once in a while.

Thanks, Arnie, for your chiming in.  You are ALWAYS WELCOME in our conversations.

------------------------------
CMW
Colette Martin-Wilde
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2021 11:18
From: Arnold Grahl
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

Sorry to chime in if this is mostly a conversation among women. But I am glad you shared it and that I read it. I think it's very important that these discussions are had, and at every level. I do feel a lot of those judgements are subjective, and complicated by gender equality issues. I hope we can get to a place where everyone can be authentic, open, and friendly. And I don't think "everyone likes you" is a bad thing at all.

------------------------------
Arnold Grahl

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2021 15:54
From: Quinn Drew
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

@Brianne Haxton - thank you for sharing this. In short, I am 100% down for a podcast conversation. I bet @Nick Kapling would be, too. And @Amanda Court, who recently accepted a new job and challenged herself to ask for what she needed in the job negotiations (I know, not exactly what this is about, but related for sure). Also @Lee Ann Searight and I have had related conversations, too.

I'm reminded of an episode of Superstore wherein one of the female characters talked about how she was aware that no one liked her, but didn't care (spoiler: she cared more than she admitted)/didn't need to be liked. But the turning point of the episode wasn't this beautiful "ah-ha" moment where she started getting along with everyone and everything was perfect. Instead, she was able to use that attitude to save one of the staff members from being fired. (Vague, I know, but i don't want to get TOO far into it because it's a good show and y'all should watch). 

Point being - I'd love to talk more about this: how we see it in our lives, how we work through it, and how we can best support others who are experiencing similar thoughts. 

@Colette Martin-Wilde and @Amanda Gose - thank you for sharing your stories and perspectives.
​​​​​​

------------------------------
Stay awesome,
Quinn

Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2021 23:25
From: Brianne Haxton
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

I saw this article about likeability (especially for women in the workplace) in a newsfeed last month and didn't have the chance to sit down with it until just recently. I'm so glad I saved it to come back to it, because it resonated strongly. The article (and 20 minute podcast) covers bias, authentic leadership, "likeability traps" and how to combat them. It's a fascinating read/quick listen. 

This "likeability trap" was reminiscent of an experience that I had early in my career. I recall an annual review where the extent of feedback about my performance was, "Everyone likes you!" I realized then that I would never really move up in the organization. 

The biggest [likeability trap] that women run into is what I call the Goldilocks conundrum - you know, too warm, too cold. A woman, it seems, is never just right. As a woman, you will either get feedback that you are too warm: "Everyone likes you - just people don't think you have what it takes." And very often no one can tell you exactly what that is, but what they're most often talking about is a perception of strength. And then a woman who is what we would perceive as strong, who asserts herself, who lobbies for things, will often be told that while she has what it takes to lead, she needs to tone it down lest she ruffle too many feathers. And what I think is particularly important to understand is that there are so many women like myself who have been given both sets of feedback, who have been told in some contexts that we are too warm and have been told in other contexts that we are too strong, which just really underlines how context[ual], specific and subjective all of this feedback is.

I'd really like others to read the article/listen to the podcast so I can hear their thoughts. Like a book club, but with a podcast. (Is that a thing?) If anyone is interested, we could use my Zoom!

@Quinn Drew @Maria Liccardo @Amanda Gose @Amanda Court @Beth Power @Barbara Mifsud @Alison Randall @Colette Martin-Wilde @Julie Aubry @Emily Tucker @Paige Lazar @LaShonda Delivuk @Nicole Daines @Jane DeMoss @Mhari Goldstein @Elisa Meggs @Stacy Graham​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

------------------------------
-Brianne
------------------------------

Thanks @Colette Martin-Wilde. For the record, I always thought you were great to work with, back in the days when we worked on communicating the strategic plan (several versions ago. Ha!) I think it's awful that women are held to a likeability test and I know I have less comprehension of that as a male employee who doesn't experience it. At least the same way.
​Prejudgments on men? hmm. that's a good question. I'm not sure I'm as tuned to that as I should be. The "don't show weakness" thing certainly is one, though I'm not sure how strongly that impacts things. When I was in sixth grade in band, we used to have tryouts for different chair positions, and a talented girl played better than me during one tryout to take first chair (I was fairly good on the trumpet back then.) A bunch of my friends were like, "how could you let a girl beat you?" But I said and felt like, "she was just better than me." I didn't have a problem with it.
I am really liking Rotary's DEI conversation, because it is really making me challenge how I look at and think about other people. What unconscious biases I have. How they influence my subjective thought. I'm hoping it will make me more aware and able to control and counter those hidden influences.

------------------------------
Arnold Grahl
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2021 08:21
From: Colette Martin-Wilde
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

Hi, Arnie,

Don't apologize. Your voice is important. I agree, "everyone likes you" isn't inherently a bad thing until it becomes a yardstick for performance and manipulation. To be clear, when a manager tells you that no one wants to work with you because you're not likeable (true story for me) it becomes a weapon for keeping you in your place. It isn't just the workplace, either. It is everywhere. I had a relative tell me, "You used to be so nice (referring to my 6 year old self), what happened? (to my 43 year old self)."  It's just that the likeability factor is one that is a mainstay of our socialization that requires hard work to recognize, face and correct.  Get enough of the same message, you believe it.  Being liked over being accomplished is the challenge that men don't routinely face  because it's not a factor in evaluating men. Men being unlikeable is accepted, often lauded and sometimes admired. Look no farther than our immediate past US president for proof of that.

To broaden the conversation, I ask you, "Which pre-judgements and expectations for men bother you?"  Society isn't fair to you guys either. Crying is weakness, for example, dedication to work to the detriment of family.  I know there are more.  It's only when we recognize, honor and work to change these biases together that we can make progress. We don't always hear all of the variations to these arguments. It's not black and white.  An example, a little off topic, but you'll get what I mean. When my son was in 5th grade he had a teacher who threatened and punished boys by making them sit with the girls. I was horrified and complained bitterly to the principal about the message that sent to young men.  Many years later, my son told me, "Mom, in 5th grade it is so hard  for boys to get any where near girls that getting punished was a way to do it without risk."  Point of view is everything!  Wish he had told me that when he was 11. It was a real eye-opener for me to take off my blinders once in a while.

Thanks, Arnie, for your chiming in.  You are ALWAYS WELCOME in our conversations.

------------------------------
CMW
Colette Martin-Wilde

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2021 11:18
From: Arnold Grahl
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

Sorry to chime in if this is mostly a conversation among women. But I am glad you shared it and that I read it. I think it's very important that these discussions are had, and at every level. I do feel a lot of those judgements are subjective, and complicated by gender equality issues. I hope we can get to a place where everyone can be authentic, open, and friendly. And I don't think "everyone likes you" is a bad thing at all.

------------------------------
Arnold Grahl

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2021 15:54
From: Quinn Drew
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

@Brianne Haxton - thank you for sharing this. In short, I am 100% down for a podcast conversation. I bet @Nick Kapling would be, too. And @Amanda Court, who recently accepted a new job and challenged herself to ask for what she needed in the job negotiations (I know, not exactly what this is about, but related for sure). Also @Lee Ann Searight and I have had related conversations, too.

I'm reminded of an episode of Superstore wherein one of the female characters talked about how she was aware that no one liked her, but didn't care (spoiler: she cared more than she admitted)/didn't need to be liked. But the turning point of the episode wasn't this beautiful "ah-ha" moment where she started getting along with everyone and everything was perfect. Instead, she was able to use that attitude to save one of the staff members from being fired. (Vague, I know, but i don't want to get TOO far into it because it's a good show and y'all should watch). 

Point being - I'd love to talk more about this: how we see it in our lives, how we work through it, and how we can best support others who are experiencing similar thoughts. 

@Colette Martin-Wilde and @Amanda Gose - thank you for sharing your stories and perspectives.
​​​​​​

------------------------------
Stay awesome,
Quinn

Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2021 23:25
From: Brianne Haxton
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

I saw this article about likeability (especially for women in the workplace) in a newsfeed last month and didn't have the chance to sit down with it until just recently. I'm so glad I saved it to come back to it, because it resonated strongly. The article (and 20 minute podcast) covers bias, authentic leadership, "likeability traps" and how to combat them. It's a fascinating read/quick listen. 

This "likeability trap" was reminiscent of an experience that I had early in my career. I recall an annual review where the extent of feedback about my performance was, "Everyone likes you!" I realized then that I would never really move up in the organization. 

The biggest [likeability trap] that women run into is what I call the Goldilocks conundrum - you know, too warm, too cold. A woman, it seems, is never just right. As a woman, you will either get feedback that you are too warm: "Everyone likes you - just people don't think you have what it takes." And very often no one can tell you exactly what that is, but what they're most often talking about is a perception of strength. And then a woman who is what we would perceive as strong, who asserts herself, who lobbies for things, will often be told that while she has what it takes to lead, she needs to tone it down lest she ruffle too many feathers. And what I think is particularly important to understand is that there are so many women like myself who have been given both sets of feedback, who have been told in some contexts that we are too warm and have been told in other contexts that we are too strong, which just really underlines how context[ual], specific and subjective all of this feedback is.

I'd really like others to read the article/listen to the podcast so I can hear their thoughts. Like a book club, but with a podcast. (Is that a thing?) If anyone is interested, we could use my Zoom!

@Quinn Drew @Maria Liccardo @Amanda Gose @Amanda Court @Beth Power @Barbara Mifsud @Alison Randall @Colette Martin-Wilde @Julie Aubry @Emily Tucker @Paige Lazar @LaShonda Delivuk @Nicole Daines @Jane DeMoss @Mhari Goldstein @Elisa Meggs @Stacy Graham​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

------------------------------
-Brianne
------------------------------

Thanks @Arnie Grahl.  Ditto.  I miss working with you. It was fun.​​

------------------------------
CMW
Colette Martin-Wilde
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2021 11:37
From: Arnold Grahl
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

Thanks @Colette Martin-Wilde. For the record, I always thought you were great to work with, back in the days when we worked on communicating the strategic plan (several versions ago. Ha!) I think it's awful that women are held to a likeability test and I know I have less comprehension of that as a male employee who doesn't experience it. At least the same way.
​Prejudgments on men? hmm. that's a good question. I'm not sure I'm as tuned to that as I should be. The "don't show weakness" thing certainly is one, though I'm not sure how strongly that impacts things. When I was in sixth grade in band, we used to have tryouts for different chair positions, and a talented girl played better than me during one tryout to take first chair (I was fairly good on the trumpet back then.) A bunch of my friends were like, "how could you let a girl beat you?" But I said and felt like, "she was just better than me." I didn't have a problem with it.
I am really liking Rotary's DEI conversation, because it is really making me challenge how I look at and think about other people. What unconscious biases I have. How they influence my subjective thought. I'm hoping it will make me more aware and able to control and counter those hidden influences.

------------------------------
Arnold Grahl

Original Message:
Sent: 07-28-2021 08:21
From: Colette Martin-Wilde
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

Hi, Arnie,

Don't apologize. Your voice is important. I agree, "everyone likes you" isn't inherently a bad thing until it becomes a yardstick for performance and manipulation. To be clear, when a manager tells you that no one wants to work with you because you're not likeable (true story for me) it becomes a weapon for keeping you in your place. It isn't just the workplace, either. It is everywhere. I had a relative tell me, "You used to be so nice (referring to my 6 year old self), what happened? (to my 43 year old self)."  It's just that the likeability factor is one that is a mainstay of our socialization that requires hard work to recognize, face and correct.  Get enough of the same message, you believe it.  Being liked over being accomplished is the challenge that men don't routinely face  because it's not a factor in evaluating men. Men being unlikeable is accepted, often lauded and sometimes admired. Look no farther than our immediate past US president for proof of that.

To broaden the conversation, I ask you, "Which pre-judgements and expectations for men bother you?"  Society isn't fair to you guys either. Crying is weakness, for example, dedication to work to the detriment of family.  I know there are more.  It's only when we recognize, honor and work to change these biases together that we can make progress. We don't always hear all of the variations to these arguments. It's not black and white.  An example, a little off topic, but you'll get what I mean. When my son was in 5th grade he had a teacher who threatened and punished boys by making them sit with the girls. I was horrified and complained bitterly to the principal about the message that sent to young men.  Many years later, my son told me, "Mom, in 5th grade it is so hard  for boys to get any where near girls that getting punished was a way to do it without risk."  Point of view is everything!  Wish he had told me that when he was 11. It was a real eye-opener for me to take off my blinders once in a while.

Thanks, Arnie, for your chiming in.  You are ALWAYS WELCOME in our conversations.

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CMW
Colette Martin-Wilde

Original Message:
Sent: 07-27-2021 11:18
From: Arnold Grahl
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

Sorry to chime in if this is mostly a conversation among women. But I am glad you shared it and that I read it. I think it's very important that these discussions are had, and at every level. I do feel a lot of those judgements are subjective, and complicated by gender equality issues. I hope we can get to a place where everyone can be authentic, open, and friendly. And I don't think "everyone likes you" is a bad thing at all.

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Arnold Grahl

Original Message:
Sent: 07-26-2021 15:54
From: Quinn Drew
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

@Brianne Haxton - thank you for sharing this. In short, I am 100% down for a podcast conversation. I bet @Nick Kapling would be, too. And @Amanda Court, who recently accepted a new job and challenged herself to ask for what she needed in the job negotiations (I know, not exactly what this is about, but related for sure). Also @Lee Ann Searight and I have had related conversations, too.

I'm reminded of an episode of Superstore wherein one of the female characters talked about how she was aware that no one liked her, but didn't care (spoiler: she cared more than she admitted)/didn't need to be liked. But the turning point of the episode wasn't this beautiful "ah-ha" moment where she started getting along with everyone and everything was perfect. Instead, she was able to use that attitude to save one of the staff members from being fired. (Vague, I know, but i don't want to get TOO far into it because it's a good show and y'all should watch). 

Point being - I'd love to talk more about this: how we see it in our lives, how we work through it, and how we can best support others who are experiencing similar thoughts. 

@Colette Martin-Wilde and @Amanda Gose - thank you for sharing your stories and perspectives.
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Stay awesome,
Quinn

Original Message:
Sent: 07-25-2021 23:25
From: Brianne Haxton
Subject: Everybody likes you... (but?)

I saw this article about likeability (especially for women in the workplace) in a newsfeed last month and didn't have the chance to sit down with it until just recently. I'm so glad I saved it to come back to it, because it resonated strongly. The article (and 20 minute podcast) covers bias, authentic leadership, "likeability traps" and how to combat them. It's a fascinating read/quick listen. 

This "likeability trap" was reminiscent of an experience that I had early in my career. I recall an annual review where the extent of feedback about my performance was, "Everyone likes you!" I realized then that I would never really move up in the organization. 

The biggest [likeability trap] that women run into is what I call the Goldilocks conundrum - you know, too warm, too cold. A woman, it seems, is never just right. As a woman, you will either get feedback that you are too warm: "Everyone likes you - just people don't think you have what it takes." And very often no one can tell you exactly what that is, but what they're most often talking about is a perception of strength. And then a woman who is what we would perceive as strong, who asserts herself, who lobbies for things, will often be told that while she has what it takes to lead, she needs to tone it down lest she ruffle too many feathers. And what I think is particularly important to understand is that there are so many women like myself who have been given both sets of feedback, who have been told in some contexts that we are too warm and have been told in other contexts that we are too strong, which just really underlines how context[ual], specific and subjective all of this feedback is.

I'd really like others to read the article/listen to the podcast so I can hear their thoughts. Like a book club, but with a podcast. (Is that a thing?) If anyone is interested, we could use my Zoom!

@Quinn Drew @Maria Liccardo @Amanda Gose @Amanda Court @Beth Power @Barbara Mifsud @Alison Randall @Colette Martin-Wilde @Julie Aubry @Emily Tucker @Paige Lazar @LaShonda Delivuk @Nicole Daines @Jane DeMoss @Mhari Goldstein @Elisa Meggs @Stacy Graham​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

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-Brianne
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